<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/24/05, <b class="gmail_sendername">Andrew Baudouin</b> <<a href="mailto:andrewmb@gmail.com">andrewmb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<div><div>
Not an opinion. If you had read my reply to Will you would have
realized it. In 1998 I had a 300Mhz PII Thinkpad running Windows 98
which could suspend and resume with opening and closing of the
lid. Suse 6.2/Whatever 2.2 kernel I was running side-by-side with
it barfed. My statement was true. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
But Will was discussing XP. XP wasn't available in 1998. I didn't take
your, "Have you even tried XP", to be a precursor for de-validating his
XP usefulness argument with data from your experience with windows 98
vs Suse1998. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><span style="font-weight: bold;">Historically, Windows supports hardware and power management better than Linux distributions do
</span>.
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Historically Windows spends less up time. I haven't had any troubles with power management in linux at least since kernel 2.4.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>I can come up with anecdotal evidence RIGHT NOW (TM) that current Linux
distros suck arse at hardware support and power management, but that is
what it is...anecdotal.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
hardware support? I want to see you run windows xp naively on a
powerbook then Ill concede that your anecdotal evidence of "suck arse
hardware support" could have credibility. How about XP on a gumstix?
That should be easy. <br>
I'd be interested in seeing your "suck arse" power management evidence.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
I wouldn't be surprised if 100% of those issues were human related
(certain drivers for hardware not playing nice). My IBM Thinkpad
w/533E Celeron works just dandy suspending and resuming under Windows
2000.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Cool, my ppc-linux 800mhz shuts down in under 3 seconds, resumes in under 7.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
I won't make an argument about present day support for Linux suspending and resuming...it's an historical one.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Yea I know.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><br>
<div>
I wasn't the one making said generalizations.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
I wasn't suggesting that you were.<br>
</div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
He's not talking about that issue. Read the message.
Besides, how is that a problem? Different profiles have different
application icon settings.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
My mistake, one of my annoyances not Will's. Its a problem because data
can be lost, its not just the icons positions that can get overwritten.
<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
Not really. It's a matter of standardizing on toolkits. </div></div></blockquote><div> <br>
What? Ok then maybe that says something about the opensource toolkits.<br>
Sheesh, what toolkit is 7zip written with? I like the windows version alot. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>All
of those use GTK (windows port is available). </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Alot of apps are not based on gtk, or qt.<br>
I don't think that the windows version of openoffice uses gtk but I could be wrong.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>The toolkits handle
all of the underlying syscalls.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Which can make them appealing to application developers willing to work
with the toolkits and their accompanying licensing policy. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
User applications shouldn't make a habit of writing to the syslog anyway.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
local6 nuff said<br>
And Windows applications have a habit of no logging at all.<br>
</div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
Again, you aren't reading. He was saying he trusts the
repositoires of Debian and doesn't trust <a href="http://sourceforge.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sourceforge.net</a> win32 builds
of free software.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
I did read that, but I didn't think that you were so dense. <br>
Nothing in debian can go in to the debian archives without a trusted
key in the debian keyring. They are signed on upload by a member of the
debian project. That member has to be connected in a web of trust with
the entire rest of the project. Someone is accountable for the build.<br>
<br>
Sourceforge is just a public anonymous repository. Find out who built
what if you can, I wouldn't trust it over a project like debian either.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
"<span><span>It would cost me hundreds of dollars to duplicate what Debian
<br>provides at no cost." is a lie. </span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Ah, well maybe it would. You don't know how *he* would go about doing that.<br>
It might not cost you hundreds of dollars. But I find it a bit harsh to call him a lyer for that.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><span><span>
Real and Flash are free. WMP/Winamp is a free replacement for
xmms, xine, and noatun. You can get XP Home for under a hundred
dollars and all of the rest for free. <br>
<br>
It is a lie.</span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Realplayer is nice, I even got them to build me a ppc-linux version of
it. Flash doesn't work for me on linux(so it sucks by default), WMP
sucks and winamp is pretty damn nice but is the only one that is truly
free.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
Debian provides nothing. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Debian provides package management tools. Pretty good ones.</div></div></blockquote></span><div><br>
Way to quote edited parts of my sentence. Mature.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Well if you want to start schoolyarding, that was an entire sentence of yours that I quoted.<br>
</div>Excuse the truncation of the rest if the paragraph which I wasn't responding to.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
WMP does...and that destroys your argument. </div></div></blockquote><div> </div>WMP isn't free...<tinfoil hat>and I wouldn't trust it. *beedy eyes*</tinfoil hat><br>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>Besides, winamp is a <span style="font-weight: bold;">free</span>
piece of software, and I was arguing that end. He was saying he
has to pay hundreds of dollars to get equivalent versions of noatun,
xmms, and xine.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
I suspect the cost of XP is a large part of that hundreds of dollars. <br>
XP Home full version is around $200 is it not?<br>
</div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><br>
<div>
Then you would lose.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
HA, then lets find 2 mawmaw's without computer usage experience and experiment.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
No generalization would convince anyone to switch from Windows.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Since it is often generalized, Freedom might.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div><br>
I would not, because there is nothing ethical about doing everything
legally possible to make sure everyone buys *only my* widgets. What you
describe sounds allot like Communism, and a bit like the essence of
Microsoft. In a free market I should do everything legally and
ethically possible to try to convince you that you want to buy my
widget and make sure you know if you have bought the widget which I
sell. To suggest that I(or my company) should do everything legally
& ethically possible to eliminate the choice of which widget
everyone can buy sounds socialist. </div></div></blockquote></span><div><br>
There sure is. Businesses everywhere do it all of the time.
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Just because business do it doesn't mean that its ethical especially in a free market economy.</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div>Undercutting price and adding value is one way. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
One way of what, eliminating choice? Read your own question. <br>
<br>
"WOuld you not do everything
legally and ethically possible to make sure everyone buys your and ONLY
YOUR widgets?" <br>
<br>
By doing everything possible(within your criteria) to make sure
everyone buys ONLY my widget I am eliminating choice for everybody.
Customers are left with 1 choice, buy my widget or no widget. By saying
this your agreeing with RMS's view on the GPL. After all he is just
doing everything legally & ethically possible to make sure everyone
gets only HIS widget. Choice is great... percisely why I choose gentoo
as my linux widget. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div> Making sure your
support of widgets is superior is another way. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Another way to have a potentially more atractive widget, yes.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>How is that
communist?</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Competing isn't commanding is.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
Microsoft beat Unix and high-dollar software vendors by undercutting
price. </div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Very well, then they ramped up licensing costs as evident with the
change of TS CAL from 2000 Server to 2003 Server. And they are a
monopoly. A free market implies competition. <br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>They are trying to beat Linux right now by adding value
and usabillity. They are losing on price and Linux is steadily
gaining, IMO.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Oddly enough I think they can still beat linux on price. That is i they
pick the proper time and have sufficient .... yea the proper time is
all.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
Forcing everyone to share and freely give away all of the software they write is what is communist.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
I can agree that forcing everyone to is. But everyone choosing to isn't.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
Yet common arguments that OSS is better due to number of bugs alone doesn't hold water.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
I can agree partly. Public bug disclosure is important IMO. Do you
trust company X to disclose widget vulnerabilities? Its a fact that
people don't write perfect software. It doesn't matter if its
Microsoft, SUN, or Linus. <br>
</div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><br>
<br>
However, that's at least considering that openssh is a requirement to do work, which it isn't.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
It is for me. That or I would need one hell of a KVM and lots of very long cables. <br>
Maybe consider that a mouse is a requirement to do work with windows, which it isn't.<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span class="q"></span><div><br>
omgwtfbbq?</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
Oh my gawd want to find big beautiful queen?<br>
</div><br></div>